Demons

[TexDanm]

I wrote this for a debate on another forum that isn't really about paranormal things. I offer it here because I suspect that here it will be seen as somewhat less than evil or sacrilegious.

Dan on demons

The concept of both good and evil, angels and demons are one and all a culturally defined thing. Just as an extreme example... Vlad Tepes...Also known as Vlad the Impaler, Vlad son of Dracul and just plain old Dracula. He was made famous to the rest of the world by the FICTION novel was written by Bram Stoker titled "Dracula". We all know about him and if there has ever been someone that was truly evil he might be NUMBER ONE... Or would he be?

The people of his nation, Romania, revered him as the savior of their nation. He was the defender of the Christian Orthodox Church against the Turk Islamic invaders. He was loved by his people and hated by his enemies. the Dracul part that has become Dracula wasn't his name. It was the name of a religious order that both he and his father were members of. dracul is DRAGON and the Catholic "dragons" or Knights Dracul was an order similar to the more famous Knights Templers. Vlad wasn't just a hero to his people. He was also greatly appreciated and commended by the Pope and the Christian kings of Europe.

A lot of things are like this. We NOW look at slavery with a certain horror and are trying to rewrite history to make all of our founding fathers into monsters because they were almost universally slave owners. Give it another generation or two and the liberals will have our grandkids and Great grandkids despising our founders. You CAN'T judge people in the past by the same rules that you were raised in or with and have a real understanding of the people or the history of that time.

Even our number one Demon has a rather interesting history. Lucifer, the word that became the name means light giver. "Lucifer" is just the Latin name of a previous hero of the story. Prometheus predated the Jewish story of man's history but the tale is very similar. Prometheus lived in the home of the gods but felt sorry for the humans that had no way to light the night or warm themselves. The big god forbade them that ability but Prometheus went down to them and gave them the gift of fire. For this Promethias was cast out and chained to the earth on the side of a mountain where every day he was torn apart by the birds but he would heal every night. Both Prometheus and Lucifer got in big trouble with their boss god for bringing knowledge to the people. both were cast out of the home of the gods and both were forever tied down to earth... one version was seen as a hero while the jews turned this act into the ultimate evil.

I'm not sure that both stories might not be true versions of some action in the past that was remembered and then told over and over and changed by each people to fit their world view. I suspect that the "demons" of the word may indeed exist but are more natural in their being than supernatural. Rabies, as seen by a primitive people, would look very much like a "demon" possession. Many of the genuine mental illnesses are still seen as possible "demon" possession. The Catholic church is doing more and more exorcisms. they have even opened their "schools" for training to do this to Ordained ministers other than Catholics.

When people are afraid they need something that they can fight. Unfortunately, not everything that is bad has a bad person or thing that is the cause. Sometimes it is just a case of $hi+ happens. People hate being helpless and it is a lot easier for them to sort of make up something to blame and just accept bad things happen. We LOVE to make SCAPE GOATS to blame bad things on and I suspect that MOST "demons" come about in this fashion.

Now to deal with that MOST in the sentence above. Most, leaves a gap where there is a lot of questions and not many solid answers. just as a more primitive people could imagine that diseases were caused by "demons" because they couldn't imagine tiny invisible bacteria and viruses might we even now be doing much the same over some other currently unexplained mysterious phenomenon? What if there ARE things out there that can influence people's actions. They might not be cast-offs from heaven any more than the germs were but they might be just as real.

I leave this small window open for one simple reason... I have seen and experienced things that I can NOT explain. It is like the UFO thing. Once you see one up close and personal you have a real problem deciding what it is while others will choose to say that you couldn't have seen something like that...but you DID. In the end, I don't know if there are demons out there that attack people. If they exist I STILL don't know what they are or where they came from. For NOW, I choose to keep an open mind...

 

[Mandykaren]

I wrote this for a debate on another forum that isn't really about paranormal things. I offer it here because I suspect that here it will be seen as somewhat less than evil or sacrilegious.

Dan on demons

The concept of both good and evil, angels and demons are one and all a culturally defined thing. Just as an extreme example... Vlad Tepes...Also known as Vlad the Impaler, Vlad son of Dracul and just plain old Dracula. He was made famous to the rest of the world by the FICTION novel was written by Bram Stoker titled "Dracula". We all know about him and if there has ever been someone that was truly evil he might be NUMBER ONE... Or would he be?

The people of his nation, Romania, revered him as the savior of their nation. He was the defender of the Christian Orthodox Church against the Turk Islamic invaders. He was loved by his people and hated by his enemies. the Dracul part that has become Dracula wasn't his name. It was the name of a religious order that both he and his father were members of. dracul is DRAGON and the Catholic "dragons" or Knights Dracul was an order similar to the more famous Knights Templers. Vlad wasn't just a hero to his people. He was also greatly appreciated and commended by the Pope and the Christian kings of Europe.

A lot of things are like this. We NOW look at slavery with a certain horror and are trying to rewrite history to make all of our founding fathers into monsters because they were almost universally slave owners. Give it another generation or two and the liberals will have our grandkids and Great grandkids despising our founders. You CAN'T judge people in the past by the same rules that you were raised in or with and have a real understanding of the people or the history of that time.

Even our number one Demon has a rather interesting history. Lucifer, the word that became the name means light giver. "Lucifer" is just the Latin name of a previous hero of the story. Prometheus predated the Jewish story of man's history but the tale is very similar. Prometheus lived in the home of the gods but felt sorry for the humans that had no way to light the night or warm themselves. The big god forbade them that ability but Prometheus went down to them and gave them the gift of fire. For this Promethias was cast out and chained to the earth on the side of a mountain where every day he was torn apart by the birds but he would heal every night. Both Prometheus and Lucifer got in big trouble with their boss god for bringing knowledge to the people. both were cast out of the home of the gods and both were forever tied down to earth... one version was seen as a hero while the jews turned this act into the ultimate evil.

I'm not sure that both stories might not be true versions of some action in the past that was remembered and then told over and over and changed by each people to fit their world view. I suspect that the "demons" of the word may indeed exist but are more natural in their being than supernatural. Rabies, as seen by a primitive people, would look very much like a "demon" possession. Many of the genuine mental illnesses are still seen as possible "demon" possession. The Catholic church is doing more and more exorcisms. they have even opened their "schools" for training to do this to Ordained ministers other than Catholics.

When people are afraid they need something that they can fight. Unfortunately, not everything that is bad has a bad person or thing that is the cause. Sometimes it is just a case of $hi+ happens. People hate being helpless and it is a lot easier for them to sort of make up something to blame and just accept bad things happen. We LOVE to make SCAPE GOATS to blame bad things on and I suspect that MOST "demons" come about in this fashion.

Now to deal with that MOST in the sentence above. Most, leaves a gap where there is a lot of questions and not many solid answers. just as a more primitive people could imagine that diseases were caused by "demons" because they couldn't imagine tiny invisible bacteria and viruses might we even now be doing much the same over some other currently unexplained mysterious phenomenon? What if there ARE things out there that can influence people's actions. They might not be cast-offs from heaven any more than the germs were but they might be just as real.

I leave this small window open for one simple reason... I have seen and experienced things that I can NOT explain. It is like the UFO thing. Once you see one up close and personal you have a real problem deciding what it is while others will choose to say that you couldn't have seen something like that...but you DID. In the end, I don't know if there are demons out there that attack people. If they exist I STILL don't know what they are or where they came from. For NOW, I choose to keep an open mind...

My sister and I both saw what some would call a demon and we saw it at the same time. I felt that it wanted us to be afraid and was trying to feed off of our fear. My children saw the exact same thing. And they were around the same age we were, when we saw it. We never told them about our encounter. They both said the same thing, about feeling like it was feeding off their fear. This was one of the weirdest and scariest things I even seen. I'm hoping this will be the last.

 

[Debi]

I wrote this for a debate on another forum that isn't really about paranormal things. I offer it here because I suspect that here it will be seen as somewhat less than evil or sacrilegious.

Dan on demons

The concept of both good and evil, angels and demons are one and all a culturally defined thing. Just as an extreme example... Vlad Tepes...Also known as Vlad the Impaler, Vlad son of Dracul and just plain old Dracula. He was made famous to the rest of the world by the FICTION novel was written by Bram Stoker titled "Dracula". We all know about him and if there has ever been someone that was truly evil he might be NUMBER ONE... Or would he be?

The people of his nation, Romania, revered him as the savior of their nation. He was the defender of the Christian Orthodox Church against the Turk Islamic invaders. He was loved by his people and hated by his enemies. the Dracul part that has become Dracula wasn't his name. It was the name of a religious order that both he and his father were members of. dracul is DRAGON and the Catholic "dragons" or Knights Dracul was an order similar to the more famous Knights Templers. Vlad wasn't just a hero to his people. He was also greatly appreciated and commended by the Pope and the Christian kings of Europe.

A lot of things are like this. We NOW look at slavery with a certain horror and are trying to rewrite history to make all of our founding fathers into monsters because they were almost universally slave owners. Give it another generation or two and the liberals will have our grandkids and Great grandkids despising our founders. You CAN'T judge people in the past by the same rules that you were raised in or with and have a real understanding of the people or the history of that time.

Even our number one Demon has a rather interesting history. Lucifer, the word that became the name means light giver. "Lucifer" is just the Latin name of a previous hero of the story. Prometheus predated the Jewish story of man's history but the tale is very similar. Prometheus lived in the home of the gods but felt sorry for the humans that had no way to light the night or warm themselves. The big god forbade them that ability but Prometheus went down to them and gave them the gift of fire. For this Promethias was cast out and chained to the earth on the side of a mountain where every day he was torn apart by the birds but he would heal every night. Both Prometheus and Lucifer got in big trouble with their boss god for bringing knowledge to the people. both were cast out of the home of the gods and both were forever tied down to earth... one version was seen as a hero while the jews turned this act into the ultimate evil.

I'm not sure that both stories might not be true versions of some action in the past that was remembered and then told over and over and changed by each people to fit their world view. I suspect that the "demons" of the word may indeed exist but are more natural in their being than supernatural. Rabies, as seen by a primitive people, would look very much like a "demon" possession. Many of the genuine mental illnesses are still seen as possible "demon" possession. The Catholic church is doing more and more exorcisms. they have even opened their "schools" for training to do this to Ordained ministers other than Catholics.

When people are afraid they need something that they can fight. Unfortunately, not everything that is bad has a bad person or thing that is the cause. Sometimes it is just a case of $hi+ happens. People hate being helpless and it is a lot easier for them to sort of make up something to blame and just accept bad things happen. We LOVE to make SCAPE GOATS to blame bad things on and I suspect that MOST "demons" come about in this fashion.

Now to deal with that MOST in the sentence above. Most, leaves a gap where there is a lot of questions and not many solid answers. just as a more primitive people could imagine that diseases were caused by "demons" because they couldn't imagine tiny invisible bacteria and viruses might we even now be doing much the same over some other currently unexplained mysterious phenomenon? What if there ARE things out there that can influence people's actions. They might not be cast-offs from heaven any more than the germs were but they might be just as real.

I leave this small window open for one simple reason... I have seen and experienced things that I can NOT explain. It is like the UFO thing. Once you see one up close and personal you have a real problem deciding what it is while others will choose to say that you couldn't have seen something like that...but you DID. In the end, I don't know if there are demons out there that attack people. If they exist I STILL don't know what they are or where they came from. For NOW, I choose to keep an open mind...

Excellent post and thoughts, Dan. Thank you for sharing this.

First thing they teach you when dealing with geriatrics is something you touched on here....when dealing with actions/circumstances from the past of people, put it in the time frame of what was acceptable as the norm during that experience. That doesn't make it right or wrong...simply what was the "accepted norm" for that time period. You, I, and some others here have lived long enough to see examples of that just in our lifetimes. Look at many commercials and ads from the past 65 years and you will find many that are now considered very offensive in today's culture. The fact remains, IN THAT TIME, these things were normal and acceptable. The Wheel has turned, times have changed, and what we see now as acceptable and the norm will change again as that Wheel turns again. So hold on, young ones...your "turn" is coming to see what I say is true.

The second part regarding evil. As you all have seen, I tend to get out my soapbox and jump on it every so often to remind everyone we honestly don't know what the paranormal is. We go by history, myth, holy books and our own discernment and a history of what works to control what we perceive as "evil" or negative. It is my opinion that we know only a fraction of what truly makes this universe tick. This leaves us looking for the best guideposts we can find on this very confusing road called life.

After all my years, I have seen both light and dark in this world. I am also evolving into seeing it as a huge picture to which we have only the corners.
That window of which you speak and leave open.....I do believe that it has some actual dark entities within it. My best guess is they are from dimensions other than ours who can interact here. We may name their dimension "hell" or whatever other name we wish to, but the result is the same...bad things can happen with these things. Which is why I took the forum to a "demon free" zone about 6 months ago (other than general discussion such as this) and refer all demon issues to clergy. Above my pay grade.

I will be the first one to tell you not everything that goes bump in the night is bad! Far from some thoughts, I don't see demons in every corner. However, I do think we as humans have perhaps opened a portal or two to these other dimensions of late. Whether we have done this with our own minds and thoughts, actions, or they are a repercussion of something like CERN, something wicked (in our accepted norm) has shown up here much more frequently.

I often step on that soap box about semantics, as well. Don't get caught up in the names or words of things. Doesn't matter what you call anything....the actions are what determine our reactions of such things. Each of us has a perception of the world in which we live and that is our personal reality. My opinion is we have to be open minded and use whatever works for us to deal with living within that reality, whether it be religious practices, intentions, or even ignoring it completely.

Science may eventually catch up with what this all is. I see giant steps being taken towards that and inroads being made to unravel the mystery. Until then, I work in Love and Light to combat the Dark...whatever that may end up being.

 

[TexDanm]

I have seen things...Where I seem to differ from many is that my curiosity has always far outstripped my fear of things unknown. In most cases when I looked closer and kept an open mind what I saw resolved itself into something not so strange. A couple of times it never did allow me an understanding. those things I just have to live with as being unexplained at this time.

I suspect that some so-called demons might be simply some other strange entity that is as curious about us as we are them. Humans seem to have an instinct that tells them that anything that is different is bad and frightening. I can tell you that that isn't true. Things can be frighteningly ugly and still not be bad.

I knew a little girl that was like this. She had the same thing that the "elephant man" had. One side of her face was the face of an angel and the other was a macabre mask of horror. She WAS an angel and my proudest moment as a Father was watching my little daughter deal with her and see past to the sweetheart that had to live with people shocked by her. I warned my daughter and to my pleasure, within minutes they had scampered off to play chattering like any two normal little girls.

I am a person of a very strong nature. I have fought my personal "demons" to a standstill. I have no fear of things because nothing could be as bad as the things that I put myself through. If a demon walks into my house I will meet it and THEN decide if it is evil or innocent. My faith is unshakable unto death. I may indeed go to hell but if I do it will be because I sent myself there. My God is more forgiving than me...

 

[Lynne]

Dan although I do agree with much of your statements I will disagree on there not being evil entities in the world. I believe they do exist and do torment some people. I agree there is not one in every haunting nor are the the cause of all mental illness, however there are a lot of documented cases of paranormal evil. Call it whatever name feels comfortable. I think Debi explains it well in terms of Symantec’s. We are all often discussing the same things but using different words. Now how God fits into the picture in regards to these entities is a matter of faith not fact and really can’t be debated on evidence.

 

[TexDanm]

I totally agree that evil exists!!! I have met and dealt with evil several times. I even believe in evil spawn. These are twisted people that were seemingly born that way into an otherwise good family. I'm not talking about problem children. these kids start early in their path of evil and never change.

My definition of evil has to do with people that seem to feed on the misery of others. I reserve judgment on social things like people that do things that are not socially acceptable. Evil always will manage to make a bad situation worse. they will drag down anyone that they can just for the pleasure and not for even profit. some people are BAd and will screw you for money. A truly evil person will screw you just because it is pleasing to them to do so even if they get nothing out of it other than that pleasure.

Another place where evil shows itself in a lack of conscience. Even good people sometimes do bad things. When they do they will end up feeling bad about it. A bad person will not feel bad about it while an evil person will gloat about it and love it.

I believe that there is a sort of seed of both good and evil in all people. For some reason in a few the seed of evil grows and fills the persons soul while the good just withers and never grows. Some people think that savagery or violent actions are evil but even good people may sometimes display this behavior. Good people RESIST this urge until it is necessary. Bad people don't seem to resist it much at all and evil people seek an opportunity to cause this even to the point of provoking it in others and just getting pleasure from having caused it.

I think that good people can be tempted by evil and become bad people. I believe that bad people can be taught and made to act like good people and some may actually become good people. Evil people are beyond redemption. The evil is who they are and what they are and there is no longer in them any good seed that might be nourished. Maybe that is what an evil demon is...just a soul that was never anything but evil...

 

[TexDanm]

This is another post that I made elsewhere in response to someone that flat out does not believe in "the devil/satan or god, nor demons or angels." This other forum is a survival board filled with a lot of extremely...conservative and hardnosed people. We recently wandered off into a more philosophical discussion with rather interesting results.

Arthur C. Clark said that any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. To someone that had never seen on or heard of such would see a flashlight as a magic wand of sorts. This is sort of how the paranormal stuff is. Things that we can't even begin to understand at this time get tossed into the paranormal can. Over time some are pulled out dusted off and placed on the shelf as understood. Mental illness like schizophrenia is not demon possession. Diseases like rabies aren't something blamed on evil spirits anymore. Eclipses haven't been scary for a long time and the movement of the stars and planets are now understood.

I suspect that in the future most of the things now in the paranormal can including things like Bigfoot, UFOs and some peoples seeming ability to do amazing things both physical and mental will be explained and understood and put on the shelf along with the other things that we now understand and don't have to blame it on invisible beings.

I don't really believe in the devil/satan but I do believe in a creative force and that there may be unseen intelligent forces out there that influence people both good and bad. God or gods??? I don't know that this is what we are dealing with. A being or people that are sufficiently more intelligent and with abilities beyond our imagining might well be indistinguishable from gods.

 

[Lynne]

I totally agree that evil exists!!! I have met and dealt with evil several times. I even believe in evil spawn. These are twisted people that were seemingly born that way into an otherwise good family. I'm not talking about problem children. these kids start early in their path of evil and never change.

My definition of evil has to do with people that seem to feed on the misery of others. I reserve judgment on social things like people that do things that are not socially acceptable. Evil always will manage to make a bad situation worse. they will drag down anyone that they can just for the pleasure and not for even profit. some people are BAd and will screw you for money. A truly evil person will screw you just because it is pleasing to them to do so even if they get nothing out of it other than that pleasure.

Another place where evil shows itself in a lack of conscience. Even good people sometimes do bad things. When they do they will end up feeling bad about it. A bad person will not feel bad about it while an evil person will gloat about it and love it.

I believe that there is a sort of seed of both good and evil in all people. For some reason in a few the seed of evil grows and fills the persons soul while the good just withers and never grows. Some people think that savagery or violent actions are evil but even good people may sometimes display this behavior. Good people RESIST this urge until it is necessary. Bad people don't seem to resist it much at all and evil people seek an opportunity to cause this even to the point of provoking it in others and just getting pleasure from having caused it.

I think that good people can be tempted by evil and become bad people. I believe that bad people can be taught and made to act like good people and some may actually become good people. Evil people are beyond redemption. The evil is who they are and what they are and there is no longer in them any good seed that might be nourished. Maybe that is what an evil demon is...just a soul that was never anything but evil...

I know well about the evil in the human condition, having worked in a max security detention facility for my career. I was referencing the never human evil entities. Many don’t believe they exist and that is a matter of personal faith. I respect that. I also agree some people are just born bad.

 

[TexDanm]

My wife worked for 25 years in the Texas prison system. For the last 10 she was at the prison that houses death row. In prisons, you have the good, the bad and the evil in the nature of people brought to the surface and put on display to some extent. Prisons are odd places. In her entire time working she not once had an inmate cause her a big problem. She mostly enjoyed working with them and found the butthead to nice ratio no worse there than working in the free world. Now that said, you would have to be wildly stupid to make someone mad that is sticking small knives in your mouth and cleaning your teeth! She also wasn't making them do anything that they didn't want to do so her relations with them were not like that between them and the correctional officers.

Most of my friends and family all work or have worked in prisons. Very few of the people in prison are evil. Most are not even truly bad in the sense of being violent without cause. Mostly they are the not very smart, the lazy, the troubled that need drugs to deal with life without 24 hour-a-day supervision like children and the just lost souls that were raised into their life. She actually misses working with them. My wife is tough as nails and fearless but she also offered to them a bit of kindness and returned to them whatever they offered her as far as treatment. Most inmates want to get fixed up when they are getting close to release and so come to see her. She would fuss at them and tell them to be good this time and to stay out of trouble...and then shake her finger at them when they showed back up not to long after. So many of them are just not able to function in the free world and so their time out is almost like a vacation and then they return home.

Most crime is actually the same people doing it over and over and over. They are in and out and in and out endlessly until they do something bad enough to be locked up forever or get killed. It would save everyone a lot of trouble and pain if they were just allowed to stay in some sort of facility and not cycle in and out like this. So many have no realistic chance of getting a good job, keeping it and staying out of trouble. What do you expect someone to do when you toss them out with no job, no home, almost no money and in many cases no family. They have so often "used up" their family. There are a lot of things that we COULD do but taxpayers hate to spend money on criminals. The thing is that nearly anything would be cheaper than what we are doing now.

 

[Lynne]

There is a lot of changes needed in our penal-reform system. That is a whole different discussion. In regards to evil in the sense of non-caporal entities is what I was referencing. That in my belief they do exist. Yes I agree there is evil in the world in some people, and in some haunting souls, I agree with that. I thought you were saying that was the only evil in the world excluding what I would call demonic entities. Although rare I believe there are incidents of it. Just a difference of faith I guess. I respect that.