Demons

I suspect that in the future most of the things now in the paranormal can including things like Bigfoot, UFOs and some peoples seeming ability to do amazing things both physical and mental will be explained and understood and put on the shelf along with the other things that we now understand and don't have to blame it on invisible beings.

I wanted to join this conversation because - well - just because. As always - my opinions, but those opinions are built after a long LONG road of more introspection than a human child should face. Because you see, when you KNOW that the evil humanity has seen is nothing, NOTHING, compared to the fountain it drinks from... you become very very OCD about self-accountability and responsibility. It is pick a side time and if it's Light then it becomes a constant battle to stay there.

I believe your premise above is sound enough. Science tells all. Eventually. Is a solid enough rock to Stand upon - however, Science without Spirituality is null before it starts. Yes, humanity is advancing Scientifically, but we are DEVOLVING Spiritually. Apparently humanity as a "society" is pretty much all about instant gratification and gimme toys toys toys and we are learning stuff. Quantum of course was a giant leap. But this is CREATION. ALL Creation. The Great Mystery. Humanity will never NEVER reach a point of Scientific Wisdom covering the unknowable. The unknowable is infinite. Science is theory then formula to fit the theory. By the time one formula is established as IS, another takes it's place. We may very well find connections for many paranormal experiences - because there are connections. But SIGHT is Spiritual. You absolutely can not UNDERSTAND what you are seeing - BUT Spirit can.

It was always Spirit, Mind, Body. As long as humanity twists that to Body, Mind, Spirit
we will remain mired in our "theory" of reality of the day and happily construct a formula to fit it.

Meanwhile - CERN. The very definition of Science without Spirituality. Let's just poke it. The ultimate ego of mankind.

In this thing - the "beings" aren't invisible - we just can't perceive them. Spirit house's imagination - imagination house's perception. We can't visualize anything that is not us or close enough to us to build a clay model around. It is said that when the first sailing ships of "civilization" hit the shores of America, the Native People's weren't afraid because they COULDN'T SEE them... Couldn't Perceive something their mind/brain had no concept to model upon- invisible. By the time they could - well, the rest is history.

I think Chaleh posted the best and most accurate statement on demon's, devils, and hell that I have ever read. Just pure and simple and right... But I can't find it now. So I will paraphrase and hope that is acceptable. What The Church has offered on these subjects and what society has gleaned from that offering is so far off it's just asinine. Cartoon figures and caricatures of nothingness. Ugly, pitchfork, slit-eyed, snake, reptile, dragon, red, hoofed, boogy man face's of tremendous perversions of body. BODY. Then hell, fire, underground, torment, lake of fire, abyss, howling, gnashing, nasties, screaming, burning... All Solid. All very Earth Like elements and human like concepts of the who, what and where. Basic, simplistic, 2 dimensional and WRONG. Lucifer was Beloved of God and the MOST beautiful Angel in God's Heavens. So says the Sacred Text that is the Bible. You truly can't judge a book by it's cover. Nor judge invisible... what we are to low on the pole to See.

I mean you can, certainly thousands if not hundreds of thousands do. You could probably come up with a mathematical theory to uphold your view... but in my humble opinion - we are the Natives as the first Ships arrived.

I don't really believe in the devil/satan but I do believe in a creative force and that there may be unseen intelligent forces out there that influence people both good and bad. God or gods??? I don't know that this is what we are dealing with. A being or people that are sufficiently more intelligent and with abilities beyond our imagining might well be indistinguishable from gods.

See, no. If humanity was as advanced as we think we are... we would not equate "more intelligent then "us" with God/Gods... But then, if we truly ARE that stupid and stunted in our
Spiritual development STILL after hundreds of thousands of years - we probably deserve what we get. The oppressed always and eventually... becoming the oppressor - does not equal intelligence nor Godlike. Nor does it mean that THEY are the top of the food chain. It is infinity you know.

And as I repeat again - There ARE rules. Universal Law. God Formula. Which include - if they say they're God/Gods they aren't. "And you will KNOW my face" and I believe that every moment of every minute of every hour of every day.

This is my world... not my theory... my Truth. And my Prayer. The alternative is, well, unknowable darkness.
 
I believe we make room for demons or evil,mostly of our own choosing,but maybe not if you are young or very naïve.You can feel it enter every time we get angry and more so if we lose control with anger or fear.Luckily most people acknowledge this and take back the control.If we let ourselves be taken over by emotions I believe evil can manifest into an actual entity and be set loose on the World.I don't know if it dissipates or lurks around looking for a fresh open soul to take over.
 
Humanity will never NEVER reach a point of Scientific Wisdom covering the unknowable. The unknowable is infinite.
And this hints at the conundrum and folly of science. If science ever did achieve its goal of covering the unknowable, then it would also be tantamount to its own death. For under these circumstances, what would there be left for science to do? Without the infinite unknown there is no longer any quest for knowledge. I would say instead that science emerges from that which is unknown and cannot exist apart from it. There are those who put science on a pedestal and worship it as some supreme means to an end. But what end - its own demise? LOL! It is for these reasons that I now steadfastly have come to see science not as the dimension but merely as one dimension of many. Science is just a methodology, no more and no less. It is better understood in terms of its utility. In these terms, the scientific method is merely something that I grab out of my toolbox when I need to apply it, i.e. to solve some problem or to organize, represent and communicate my observations of the world. Sure, I don't deny that's important. But it doesn't stop there. In exchange for the computer we got the atomic bomb. In exchange for the small pox vaccine we got weaponized biological agents. In exchange for anesthesia we got drug addiction. The list goes on. It never takes long to come full revisit to intent, that which characterizes our Spirit. And if these notions can be accepted as true, I would conclude by saying therefore that science does not subsume Spirit, but rather, Spirit subsumes science.
 
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I wanted to join this conversation because - well - just because. As always - my opinions, but those opinions are built after a long LONG road of more introspection than a human child should face. Because you see, when you KNOW that the evil humanity has seen is nothing, NOTHING, compared to the fountain it drinks from... you become very very OCD about self-accountability and responsibility. It is pick a side time and if it's Light then it becomes a constant battle to stay there.

I believe your premise above is sound enough. Science tells all. Eventually. Is a solid enough rock to Stand upon - however, Science without Spirituality is null before it starts. Yes, humanity is advancing Scientifically, but we are DEVOLVING Spiritually. Apparently humanity as a "society" is pretty much all about instant gratification and gimme toys toys toys and we are learning stuff. Quantum of course was a giant leap. But this is CREATION. ALL Creation. The Great Mystery. Humanity will never NEVER reach a point of Scientific Wisdom covering the unknowable. The unknowable is infinite. Science is theory then formula to fit the theory. By the time one formula is established as IS, another takes it's place. We may very well find connections for many paranormal experiences - because there are connections. But SIGHT is Spiritual. You absolutely can not UNDERSTAND what you are seeing - BUT Spirit can.

It was always Spirit, Mind, Body. As long as humanity twists that to Body, Mind, Spirit
we will remain mired in our "theory" of reality of the day and happily construct a formula to fit it.

Meanwhile - CERN. The very definition of Science without Spirituality. Let's just poke it. The ultimate ego of mankind.

In this thing - the "beings" aren't invisible - we just can't perceive them. Spirit house's imagination - imagination house's perception. We can't visualize anything that is not us or close enough to us to build a clay model around. It is said that when the first sailing ships of "civilization" hit the shores of America, the Native People's weren't afraid because they COULDN'T SEE them... Couldn't Perceive something their mind/brain had no concept to model upon- invisible. By the time they could - well, the rest is history.

I think Chaleh posted the best and most accurate statement on demon's, devils, and hell that I have ever read. Just pure and simple and right... But I can't find it now. So I will paraphrase and hope that is acceptable. What The Church has offered on these subjects and what society has gleaned from that offering is so far off it's just asinine. Cartoon figures and caricatures of nothingness. Ugly, pitchfork, slit-eyed, snake, reptile, dragon, red, hoofed, boogy man face's of tremendous perversions of body. BODY. Then hell, fire, underground, torment, lake of fire, abyss, howling, gnashing, nasties, screaming, burning... All Solid. All very Earth Like elements and human like concepts of the who, what and where. Basic, simplistic, 2 dimensional and WRONG. Lucifer was Beloved of God and the MOST beautiful Angel in God's Heavens. So says the Sacred Text that is the Bible. You truly can't judge a book by it's cover. Nor judge invisible... what we are to low on the pole to See.

I mean you can, certainly thousands if not hundreds of thousands do. You could probably come up with a mathematical theory to uphold your view... but in my humble opinion - we are the Natives as the first Ships arrived.



See, no. If humanity was as advanced as we think we are... we would not equate "more intelligent then "us" with God/Gods... But then, if we truly ARE that stupid and stunted in our
Spiritual development STILL after hundreds of thousands of years - we probably deserve what we get. The oppressed always and eventually... becoming the oppressor - does not equal intelligence nor Godlike. Nor does it mean that THEY are the top of the food chain. It is infinity you know.

And as I repeat again - There ARE rules. Universal Law. God Formula. Which include - if they say they're God/Gods they aren't. "And you will KNOW my face" and I believe that every moment of every minute of every hour of every day.

This is my world... not my theory... my Truth. And my Prayer. The alternative is, well, unknowable darkness.
CLAPPING!! GOLD METAL EXPLANATION!!! CAN WE PJEASE ARCHIVE THIS WITH A GOLD STAR!!! :key: DONNA, THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THAT INTO WORDS. It’s a matter of faith but I believe this to be truth.
 
And this hints at the conundrum and folly of science. If science ever did achieve its goal of covering the unknowable, then it would also be tantamount to its own death. For under these circumstances, what would there be left for science to do? Without the infinite unknown there is no longer any quest for knowledge. I would say instead that science emerges from that which is unknown and cannot exist apart from it. There are those who put science on a pedestal and worship it as some supreme means to an end. But what end - its own demise? LOL! It is for these reasons that I now steadfastly have come to see science not as the dimension but merely as one dimension of many. Science is just a methodology, no more and no less. It is better understood in terms of its utility. In these terms, the scientific method is merely something that I grab out of my toolbox when I need to apply it, i.e. to solve some problem or to organize, represent and communicate my observations of the world. Sure, I don't deny that's important. But it doesn't stop there. In exchange for the computer we got the atomic bomb. In exchange for the small pox vaccine we got weaponized biological agents. In exchange for anesthesia we got drug addiction. The list goes on. It never takes long to come full revisit to intent, that which characterizes our Spirit. And if these notions can be accepted as true, I would conclude by saying therefore that science does not subsume Spirit, but rather, Spirit subsumes science.
Well stated.
 
The concept of good and evil is often a cultural thing that seems to change with the passing of one generation to the next. It is sort of like the swing of a giant pendulum. This makes history an evolving thing as each generation rewrites history to make it fit the current belief structure.

As you age you see this clearly. The bad things of the past become acceptable and the good things and people of the past can get redefined into bad people. Columbus and Thomas Jefferson jump to mind. When I was a kid, men with long hair were seen as being in the fast lane to perdition. The racial issues in my life have made changes that young people can't possibly imagine. It is hard to fairly judge people in the past because you don't have the same cultural biases.

The basics MOSTLY are consistent. Things like murder and thievery are mostly universally considered bad...until something happens that can even change those basic truths. I was raised hearing "Thou shall not kill!" Then the government decides to snatch you up, ship you thousands of miles and tells you to kill a bunch of people that basically have never done anything to you personally. The people that become great killers are now heroes...until views change and they aren't.

The winners of every war get to write the history books. Just because you won the war doesn't mean that you are or were in the right. I think the strangest thing is that the absolute enemies of the past will then often be the allies in your future. The allies of today may well be the evil empire of the future.

One of the problems with our American democracy is that to someone outside of our system we are pretty much like dealing with a schizophrenic. Every 4 to 8 years we may do a total flip flop and change what we are. I remember when people had their political careers destroyed by rumors of them having an extramarital affair. I also remember a couple of presidents that turned the White House into a bordello with no repercussions. Different times different morals.

In the years following the end of WW2 our world has been turned upside down in so many ways. So many young men left the farm to go to war and never went back. my Dad was one of them. He got a college education from the Navy at the University of Texas Austin. that would have never been possible otherwise. Medical and health changes also changed everything. The biggest was the advent of safe and dependable birth control that freed women from spending 30 or 40 years devoted to child-rearing. My GreatGrandparents had 17 kids!!! My dad had Aunts and Uncles that were a lot younger then he was. When you live on a farm this is fine. More mouths became more hands and they were happy.

The ability to DECIDE when and how many kids to have has changed everything. So many of the old rules revolved around protecting ad caring for these big families. Back then people didn't buy life insurance. For one thing, they didn't have the money for that sort of thing. There used to be all sorts of fraternal organizations that were to a great extent insurance policies. The Odd Fellows, The woodsmen of the World and the freemasons were and are organizations that were a response to men wanting to make sure that if they died that their family would be looked out for. The first order of business in every Masonic lodge at all meetings is a report on the widows and orphans and if they have any needs. The Catholics have the Knights of Columbus. Most fraternal organization's origins are in men's worries about their loved ones. They pushed the importance of honor because only through honor would the promises be kept. Now, honor is almost considered as a bad word.

So many things that were considered REALLY BAD when I was young are now totally acceptable and normal now. Some of these things are sad and some were good changes. ???
 
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There are a lot of truths here. But I will contest one point.

One of the problems with our American democracy is that to someone outside of our system we are pretty much like dealing with a schizophrenic. Every 4 to 8 years we may do a total flip flop and change what we are.

Personally, I don't think that is a problem. Rather, I think it is quite a good thing. First, it keeps us from becoming too predictable. Those who are too predictable are easy prey. It keeps our competitors on their toes. For it is still natural law, not rule of law, that still ultimately governs the actors on the world stage. Second, it attests to the flexibility and resilience of our society. We can adapt to these changes internally, yet remain fundamentally who we are. Or to paraphrase an old proverb, the tree that survive the storm is the tree that can sway and bend with the wind.
 
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You ought to be an American ally. One administration will be your best friend and then the next day a new administration rolls in and cuts your throat. Jimmy Carter did this to our long-time ally the Shah of Iran and gifted the world with the current radical Islamic government. Isreal got a cold shoulder from the Obama administration after having close relations with the previous administration. This may be great fun for us but it makes us a hard country to trust since any promises made are only guaranteed good for 4 to 8 years max. So many administrations in other countries have either collapsed or been attacked and tossed out by the US because of our constantly changing attitudes. In an international world, there are a lot of good reasons to not become too invested in any American administration. When you are a small nation you really would prefer that the nations you depend as trade partners and defensive partners are not like a schizophrenic with multiple personality disorders. More and more we are seeing countries make their ties to China and Russia simply because they are much more consistent in their policies.
 
OK, guys, good discussion, but we do not do politics here. Keep us in the neutral zone if you will. :) Thanks.
 
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...but we do not do politics here...

You ought to be...

My strong convictions on every claim you have made would certainly take us tumbling headlong into the pit of demon politics:japaneseogre: if I responded in a way that is consistent with my previous post. I will just say that we have stimulating differences.
 
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