Dark Matter 10/9 - Art Bell interviews Dr. Andrew Karam

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Hi, all. A few quick things to follow up from yesterday. First, I took a quick look at the web page that Jerry posted. I haven't had a chance to take a close look yet, but I can at least share a few impressions with you and I'll post more when I get a chance to take a closer read.

The bottom line is that it's a bit of a grab bag of stuff. There are a number of articles that seem to have some fairly solid facts in them, and there are some that seem a little less plausible. But the biggest thing that I noticed was the interpretation and explanation that was given, and this was all over the place. As one example, it is factually true to say that levels of I-131 were hundreds of thousands higher than what we normally find in nature. But that statement is misleading - we normally don't find I-131 in nature, so even a trivial amount (as in less than what we give to a nuclear medicine patient to diagnose disease) would show up as being hundreds of thousands times higher than normal. So one person could look at the underlying fact and conclude that we're all going to die while another person can look at the same fact and point out that we give this much iodine to tens of thousands of people every day.

Another story notes that they found 1400 Becquerels of radioactivity per cubic meter of ocean water in the vicinity of Fukushima I agree that this is a high level - especially since there's normally virtually no Cs-137 in seawater, and there's no doubt that it came from Fukushima. There's been a lot of study of the impact of ingesting Cs-137 and we know more about the dose from this nuclide than we do from virtually any other - ingesting 3.7 million Bq will give you a whole-body radiation exposure of 5 rem. So drinking about 2600 cubic meters of seawater (about 570,000 gallons) of this seawater will give a person a radiation dose of 5 rem - which will increase your lifetime cancer risk by about 1/4%. Again - the facts (the nuclide concentrations) in this story seem to be reasonable; what makes the difference is whether they're interpreted as "Oh my god we're all going to die" or "That's a lot higher than it ought to be, we need to stop it from getting any worse, but at least it's not enough to be a danger."

So my first impression is that this is a mixture of good and bad with regards to both the quality of the information presented and the manner in which it's interpreted. I agree that the numbers are higher than they usually are in nature and I agree that the numbers are higher than they ought to be - where I disagree is in feeling that the situation is not as dire as many make it out to be. Let me give one quick analogy and then I'll sign off until I've had a chance to take a closer look at more of the articles. I know that crashing my car into a brick wall at 1o0 mph is almost 100% fatal. Does this mean that I have a 10% of dying in a 10 mph crash? Or a 1% chance of death in a 1 mph accident? How upset should I be if I catch my kids driving at 20 mph if I assume that an accident at that speed was 20% likely to cause their death? The math seems pretty straightforward - but at the same time we know that the reality is more complex. Anyhow - enough for now and more later!
 
Just an update from today's news - Andy was a shill for the Nuclear Industry. http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/10/10-3

Jerry - all I can say is that I've never worked at a commercial nuclear power plant and never want to. Never consulted for the nuclear industry and never want to. And let's face it, with 5 kids I don't have anything to invest in utility stocks, so I've got no financial interest there either. Come to think of it, as a radiation consultant, I stand to gain an awful lot more by keeping people scared of radiation than I do by trying to assuage fears.

The bottom line is that I call it like I see it. The problem is (IMHO) that when everyone is running around saying "We're all going to die horribly" anybody who says "We're all going to get fairly upset and cleanup will cost a ton of money" sounds like a shill I guess.

My best professional opinion - based on my personal measurements in Japan, my study of the data collected by Japanese, US, and international sources, and my experience as a radiation safety professional - is that Fukushima has obviously released large quantities of radioactive materials into the environment, that this contamination ought to be cleaned up, and that it is likely that nobody is going to die from the radiation released. And, incidentally, this was also the conclusion of the World Health Organization, which has no reason to shill for the nuclear industry. If agreeing that Japan ought to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to clean up the mess isn't dire enough and I still sound like a shill for the nuclear industry then I'm not really sure what more can be added to the discussion.
 
Dr. Karam you are from Ohio? I know, or knew several Karam's in Ohio

OK - last one, then I've got to get to sleep since I have to wake up at 4 AM (a wacky weak for sleeping hours). Anyhow - Bruce, I grew up in Akron and I was a student at Ohio State University, so I lived in Columbus for over a dozen years while I was in school post-Navy (BA, MS, and PhD).
 
Hi, All - and Happy Friday!

I was just looking again at the most recent news on the web page that Jerry sent out. I was hoping to put together comments on a number of stories, but I'm having trouble connecting to the site and its stories so I could only do 2. I won't be able to log in at all over the weekend (traveling for a family get-together) and didn't want to put this off indefinitely, so I'm posting what I've got done.

So here's a slightly more in-depth assessment of these two stories. I don't want to get tedious, so I'll leave it at this unless you all would like to see more - I'm happy to go into more if there's an interest. And I'm happy to provide citations from the scientific literature for anything you might be curious (or have doubts) about.

Story: cancer in 40 children, leukemia to follow in next few months
Science: The latency period for radiation-induced cancers ranges from 5 years (leukemia) to over 20 years (solid tumors). While we don’t know if there’s a threshold dose for cancer induction, we do know that the risks are lower at low doses and the latency period is longer.
Status: Busted – regardless of issues related to radiation exposure and risk, there hasn’t been nearly enough time to see any cancers at all from this accident and certainly not for thyroid cancers to develop - the ones they talk about were already present and would have shown up regardless of radiation exposure. If there was enough exposure to cause leukemia, it should start to show up between 2016-2021 and solid cancers would start to appear in about 2026 or so. (But remember that the World Health Organization found that there was no measurable increase in leukemias after Chernobyl and (to date) only a handful of solid tumors in spite of much higher radiation dose to the public.)

Story: Rice cleared for sale – farmers are concerned.
Science: The limits in food are based on assumptions on how much food is eaten and for how long and are based on the radiation exposure from that level of consumption. The annual ingestion limit for Cs-137 is 3.7 million Bq so eating rice at the limit of 100 Bq/gm will require an annual consumption of 37 kg (about 80 pounds) of rice to reach this limit. Japanese rice consumption is about 60-70 kg per person per year, so it’s reasonable to think that a person eating only the “hot” rice from the Fukushima area can exceed this level of exposure. In addition, people will be eating other foods that might also be contaminated and that could boost their exposure further.
Status: Plausible – on the one hand, it is plausible that a person can exceed their annual exposure limit. On the other hand, radiation risks are based on a lifetime of exposure and not on a single year – a person who has no cesium ingestion before 2011 and who only reaches or exceeds their limit for a few years is not at a high risk from this short exposure. However, even though the risk is low the fact remains that the rice is above the standards – it might make sense to eat if there are no other options (starvation is sort of dangerous too), but it also makes sense to restrict consumption and to factor in other possible sources of radionuclides to make sure that nobody exceeds the maximum allowable dose. At the same time – it also makes sense to try to take care of the farmers whose livelihood has been impacted through no fault of theirs - if they can't sell their rice then the government (or TEPCO) should make up for that loss of income.
 
Hi, All - and Happy Friday!

I was just looking again at the most recent news on the web page that Jerry sent out. I was hoping to put together comments on a number of stories, but I'm having trouble connecting to the site and its stories so I could only do 2. I won't be able to log in at all over the weekend (traveling for a family get-together) and didn't want to put this off indefinitely, so I'm posting what I've got done.

So here's a slightly more in-depth assessment of these two stories. I don't want to get tedious, so I'll leave it at this unless you all would like to see more - I'm happy to go into more if there's an interest. And I'm happy to provide citations from the scientific literature for anything you might be curious (or have doubts) about.

Story: cancer in 40 children, leukemia to follow in next few months
Science: The latency period for radiation-induced cancers ranges from 5 years (leukemia) to over 20 years (solid tumors). While we don’t know if there’s a threshold dose for cancer induction, we do know that the risks are lower at low doses and the latency period is longer.
Status: Busted – regardless of issues related to radiation exposure and risk, there hasn’t been nearly enough time to see any cancers at all from this accident and certainly not for thyroid cancers to develop - the ones they talk about were already present and would have shown up regardless of radiation exposure. If there was enough exposure to cause leukemia, it should start to show up between 2016-2021 and solid cancers would start to appear in about 2026 or so. (But remember that the World Health Organization found that there was no measurable increase in leukemias after Chernobyl and (to date) only a handful of solid tumors in spite of much higher radiation dose to the public.)

Story: Rice cleared for sale – farmers are concerned.
Science: The limits in food are based on assumptions on how much food is eaten and for how long and are based on the radiation exposure from that level of consumption. The annual ingestion limit for Cs-137 is 3.7 million Bq so eating rice at the limit of 100 Bq/gm will require an annual consumption of 37 kg (about 80 pounds) of rice to reach this limit. Japanese rice consumption is about 60-70 kg per person per year, so it’s reasonable to think that a person eating only the “hot” rice from the Fukushima area can exceed this level of exposure. In addition, people will be eating other foods that might also be contaminated and that could boost their exposure further.
Status: Plausible – on the one hand, it is plausible that a person can exceed their annual exposure limit. On the other hand, radiation risks are based on a lifetime of exposure and not on a single year – a person who has no cesium ingestion before 2011 and who only reaches or exceeds their limit for a few years is not at a high risk from this short exposure. However, even though the risk is low the fact remains that the rice is above the standards – it might make sense to eat if there are no other options (starvation is sort of dangerous too), but it also makes sense to restrict consumption and to factor in other possible sources of radionuclides to make sure that nobody exceeds the maximum allowable dose. At the same time – it also makes sense to try to take care of the farmers whose livelihood has been impacted through no fault of theirs - if they can't sell their rice then the government (or TEPCO) should make up for that loss of income.

So as far as their consumption of rice goes, it's pretty much along the same lines as limiting how much fish you eat because of mercury etc...?
 
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Thank you, Andy for coming back! I fell asleep during the show, since I am on the east coast and Art begins at 10, but caught the replay using the On Demand feature at Sirius. It was a great interview. I am close to a nuclear reactor and am nervous that since it was also built on a fault line (like Fukushima), something bad could happen. It seems highly unlikely, but then again what happened at Fukushima was highly unlikely.
 
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So as far as their consumption of rice goes, it's pretty much along the same lines as limiting how much fish you eat because of mercury etc...?
I stopped eating fish unless it is wild caught (and even then).
 
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