What would make the Tanakh's/Old Testament's prophecies reliable?

Debi said:
These principles go back to a time way before Crowley, who decided to take them and shape them into his own religion.
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Sure, they precede Crowley.
Wiccan Rede

notable antecedent was put forth by the philosopher John Stuart Mill with his harm principle in the 19th century. "Mill argues that the sole purpose of law should be to stop people from harming others and that should people want to participate in victimless crimes, crimes with no complaining witness, such as gambling, drug usage, engaging in prostitution, then they should not be encroached in doing so."

Wiccan Rede - Wikipedia
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If the rule means that you should engage in victimless crimes if you so desire, then it makes me feel uncomfortable.

Otherwise, what is the point of the rule? If your family wants you to go to the zoo, take family photos, and have a nice picnic with them, but you want to stay home and play video games, then you should not do what your family wants, but what you want? I am also uncomfortable with making that a rule, because I think family is important. I feel that people often should put collective needs over individual desires.

The larger point I want to make is that people can feel something is right or "know it in their heart", but that doesn't make it reliable factually. You trust that Wicca is good and I have a feeling of discomfort in my heart, so does that mean that having a good or trusting feeling about something doesn't make the feeling objectively reliable?
 
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rakovsky said:
If the rule means that you should engage in victimless crimes if you so desire, then it makes me feel uncomfortable.
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Obviously you've never been around Wiccans before. The primary goal is harmony..with the earth, it's people, with nature, with Spirit. Those who walk the path go out of their way to avoid harming anyone or anything, including themselves. In fact, my motto here for my members is "Family First". As far as putting individual desires aside for the collective needs...trust me, Rakovsky....that's what we do. We walk the talk. Also, the Rede is something we aspire to follow... there are no RULES in Wicca. That's the whole point...It's a general concept of love and we should as humans be willing to give to others without a rule to make us comply. We honor all religious/spiritual beliefs of others who walk in love and light.

As with ANY religion, you will find those who stray from those concepts and do their own interpretations. There's some in any group.
 
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Debi said:
You cannot define or prove faith itself with the sole use of science. You either have it or you don't. Reliable basis? Deductive reasoning is the closest you can get. Even science is based on deductive reasoning.
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Thank you for talking about deductive reason. I would like to hear more about how deductive reasoning can get you closer to defining or proving the right faith.

My point about feeling and intuition was that people can have opposite feelings about the same thing, so it makes feelings less reliable for me.

When you say "Family first", my intuition is that this is a good saying, although maybe it's even better to say "God first".

When someone says you should "do what you want as long as it doesn't cause harm", my feeling or intuition senses serious discomfort. What does "Do what you want" mean, what is the point, and how does it show itself in practice? What kind of person doesn't do what they want? Someone with inhibitions doesn't do what he/she wants. So it must mean "Ignore your inhibitions and do what you want as long as you don't cause harm". And that saying is a problem for me, because it opens up all nonharmful temptations and nonharmful self-aggrandizement. Emphasizing doing what you want unharmfully is an emphasis in conflict with always putting your family first.

If some "horned being" shows up on your shoulder and whispers "Do it, Do it, you won't hurt anybody....", that does not look like a good sign to me. Why would somebody be emphasizing that you aren't hurting anybody unless it's addressing the sneaking suspicion that the action is actually immoral?
 
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Rakovsky, I know we have a bit of a language barrier going here as in general interpretations of American language. I am doing my best to make things clear for you from my interpretation of things.

However, I also want to make it clear it's not my goal to bring you into my faith. That's a very personal walk for each person.

And what we mean by do as ye will, it simply means to follow your dreams. Don't be afraid to take a chance on what you wish to do in life. (As long as it's of love and light.)
 
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Debi said:
Rakovsky, I know we have a bit of a language barrier going here as in general interpretations of American language. I am doing my best to make things clear for you from my interpretation of things.

However, I also want to make it clear it's not my goal to bring you into my faith. That's a very personal walk for each person.
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Sure. If you called it pagan, that would make it more comfortable than using words like "Wicca" and "the Craft" resembling in American language "witch craft" and "wickedness".

My main goal here should just be explaining why I have opposite feelings about Wicca from what Wiccans do. If your emphasis is on Family first, God/Spirit first, or emphasizing "love and light", then that's appealing.

I see that you are making your own version of the "Rede", by adding "as long as it's of love and light", which is nicer than the normal "Rede".

Still, if one is emphasizing "Do what you want", and adding "don't harm people" and "it must belong to love and light" in the form of mere qualifiers, then it doesn't sound right to me. Maybe what you want belongs to "light", but there is still far far much better things belonging to light. If you help a friend or follow a good dream that could be much better than playing a nice video game even if your desire is stronger to play the game. "Do what you want" is not really the best advice ("rede") then.

So what is the best advice, to do what God/Spirit, Family, Fellow Man/Woman needs and wants, or follow what you want? To make the main advice in a religion doing what you want, even with some qualifiers feels deviant.

You also say:
there are no RULES in Wicca. That's the whole point
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I think that many rules are bad, hurtful, and oppressive in the real world, and I believe in people having freedom and following good dreams, but I think that these are not the main best things.

To emphasize that there should be "no rules" feels wrong to me. I think that there are some major moral rules people should follow, like "don't kill people". It doesn't mean that I am an absolutist and legalist about every rule. But "Do what ye will unless it's hurtful" sounds like a teaching to follow one's personal wishes and denying all rules except not to harm.
 
It appears to me that much of what I believe appears to feel wrong to you and I must disagree with many of your own "qualifiers" and assumptions. Which means, my friend, you must follow your own path to the answers you wish to find about faith. Explaining or defining my own further will not help you reach your own goals or find your answers.

I wish you only the best on your journey to find it.
 
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Debi,
You write:
Debi said:
I, for one, take prophecy with a grain of salt and as eye opening metaphors of what could happen if we don't become loving humans on this planet.
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May I ask if you believe that there are such things as paranormal abilities in general?

It sounds like you only take with a grain of salt such things as: precognition, foretelling, premonitions, dream interpreting about the future, foresight.
I would have guessed that being a Wiccan on the paranormal forum you would accept paranormal abilities. But please, I am not trying to speak for you or pigeon hole you into a box. You have the freedom to believe as you like, and the scientific community does not nearly have a consensus supporting precognition.
 
rakovsky said:
Debi,
You write:

May I ask if you believe that there are such things as paranormal abilities in general?

It sounds like you only take with a grain of salt such things as: precognition, foretelling, premonitions, dream interpreting about the future, foresight.
I would have guessed that being a Wiccan on the paranormal forum you would accept paranormal abilities. But please, I am not trying to speak for you or pigeon hole you into a box. You have the freedom to believe as you like, and the scientific community does not nearly have a consensus supporting precognition.
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I do believe in all the above. And have had my own experiences with them.

You have asked me many questions. May I now ask you one? What do YOU believe, Rakovsky?
 
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