What would make the Tanakh's/Old Testament's prophecies reliable?

[rakovsky]

I am interested in your experiences that you mentioned.
I believe that the Soul exists based on direct experience, and that God exists, since God can be defined broadly enough as the supreme being and there is some underlying life force. God inspired the prophets and they predicted that Messiah would be killed and resurrect, and that there would be a resurrection of the dead.

However, to draw some more conclusions requires more thought. If they predicted that, does it mean it must happen? If the story of Jesus lines up with the prophecies, does that mean that the story occurred in real life and that the prophets were actually foreseeing Jesus?
It's a neat thought.

 

[Debi]

I'm sorry for the delay in answer, Rak. Been a busy 24 hours. And by the way, other members out there, do feel free to jump into this conversation with your views.

God inspired the prophets and they predicted that Messiah would be killed and resurrect, and that there would be a resurrection of the dead.

I would ask you this: You say you believe this has been shown as proven for the first part. What the prophets were divinely inspired to write about the birth, death and resurrection has occurred. If you believe this to be true, is that not some prove for you to believe in the second part of the prophecies? If you believe in the first three predictions/prophecies being correct, I would see that as a pretty good view of repeatable evidence.

 

[rakovsky]

God inspired the prophets and they predicted that Messiah would be killed and resurrect, and that there would be a resurrection of the dead.

I would ask you this: You say you believe this has been shown as proven for the first part. What the prophets were divinely inspired to write about the birth, death and resurrection has occurred.

Actually, if read closely, what I said in the last message was:

• The Soul exists
• God exists
• God inspired the prophets
• The prophets predicted Messiah's death, resurrection, and the resurrection of the dead

I did not say What the prophets were divinely inspired to write about ... has occurred.

That rather was my question. I was asking if the prediction means that it has occurred, and if it means that there will be a resurrection of the dead.

You ask:

If you believe this to be true, is that not some prove for you to believe in the second part of the prophecies? If you believe in the first three predictions/prophecies being correct, I would see that as a pretty good view of repeatable evidence.

The answer I would give personally is Yes. If those things did turn out to occur, I would see it as a good sign of reliability.

But I was also asking whether the events occurred. I did not say that in fact they did in my message.

Regards.

 

[7Critter]

If they predicted that, does it mean it must happen?

Many modern prophets/forecasters say that future events are not cast in stone, that as events or circumstances change, so can their predicted events. Perhaps they are hedging their bets, offering a way out, perhaps our destiny is what we make of it and not predetermined.

 

[Lynne]

I have respectfully held off on commenting on this conversation because I was trying to figure out the heart of the questions asked here. I think There is somewhat of a language barrier. So forgive me if I'm way off base. I think Debi has done a fine job in expressing her beliefs and reasoning.

I will weigh in with this, how does a person decide what to believe? I think that comes down to each individuals personal experiences and the effect that belief has on his life. It also is based on deductive reasoning, what has happened in the past will effect the outcome of the future. Christ or Jesus was predicted by the profits and he fulfilled those prophesies beyond chance. I have faith in the Bible and it has changed my life. Through my personal expierence and deductive reasoning I place my faith in the god of the Bible. So I guess it comes down to what Debi has asked you WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? We are non judge mental here and you can safely state that here. But it's not really fair to criticize and question others faith if you are not willing to put yourself in the hot seat. I may recommend a good book for you. It's called "the case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is faith based on deductive reasoning

 

[Debi]

I have respectfully held off on commenting on this conversation because I was trying to figure out the heart of the questions asked here. I think There is somewhat of a language barrier. So forgive me if I'm way off base. I think Debi has done a fine job in expressing her beliefs and reasoning.

I will weigh in with this, how does a person decide what to believe? I think that comes down to each individuals personal experiences and the effect that belief has on his life. It also is based on deductive reasoning, what has happened in the past will effect the outcome of the future. Christ or Jesus was predicted by the profits and he fulfilled those prophesies beyond chance. I have faith in the Bible and it has changed my life. Through my personal expierence and deductive reasoning I place my faith in the god of the Bible. So I guess it comes down to what Debi has asked you WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? We are non judge mental here and you can safely state that here. But it's not really fair to criticize and question others faith if you are not willing to put yourself in the hot seat. I may recommend a good book for you. It's called "the case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is faith based on deductive reasoning

Thank you, Lynne.

Rakovsky, I've come to believe you are asking how to prove the unprovable. What it comes down to is faith. The definition is as follows from the Oxford dictionary...

A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Since you are asking whether the events occurred, you are once again asking for the unprovable. History tells us some of it, but the rest remains as something that must be taken as faith.

I believe I have answered your question to the best of my ability. Thank you for the discussion on this topic.

 

[rakovsky]

such things as: precognition, foretelling, premonitions, dream interpreting about the future, foresight.

I ... have had my own experiences with them.

Could you please talk about this, Debi?
The more of these kinds of experiences I have and accounts I hear, the more the phenomena seem real to me.

Peace.

 

[rakovsky]

Many modern prophets/forecasters say that future events are not cast in stone, that as events or circumstances change, so can their predicted events. Perhaps they are hedging their bets, offering a way out, perhaps our destiny is what we make of it and not predetermined.

Makes sense, Christie.
If reality is on a time space continuum, why can't the events change? It seems like they could and that events are not totally set in stone in an immovable way.

 

[rakovsky]

Thanks for a thoughtful reply, Lynne.

I will weigh in with this, how does a person decide what to believe?

One of the questions would be how much belief is a "choice" or "decision"?

Strawberry and chocolate ice cream are nice, while vanilla is plain and more boring. Is chocolate or my preference for chocolate then really my "choice" or is it just a reflection of me being able to recognize reality that chocolate is a better flavor?

Further, is choosing to believe in some things like the Jewish and Christian miracle events really the same thing as picking a flavor of ice cream or even picking a "life philosophy"? Peacefulness and studying and love are quite nice philosophies and customs and behaviors for me to choose. But is recognizing some historical event or fact of nature like the world being round or Aztecs performing sacrifices or the brutal actions of the Spanish conquest of the Americas really a choice? I don't want the Aztecs to have performed sacrifices, so can I choose not to believe this bad act occurred? Same thing with the miracle events in Christianity or the phenomena of Biblical prophecy. It seems to me hard to say that I love these events, they sound very nice to me, therefore I will decide that the events are factually real.

It seems to me instead that one has to consider whether the Jewish or Christian events and phenomena like Biblical prophecy are real based on a realistic observation and reasoning, not just finding that the phenomena are appealing and then choosing to believe in them on this basis.

I like what you are saying here, Lynne:

I think that comes down to each individuals personal experiences and the effect that belief has on his life. It also is based on deductive reasoning, what has happened in the past will effect the outcome of the future. Christ or Jesus was predicted by the profits and he fulfilled those prophesies beyond chance. I have faith in the Bible and it has changed my life. Through my personal expierence and deductive reasoning I place my faith in the god of the Bible.

So I guess it comes down to what Debi has asked you WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?

• The Soul exists
• God exists
• God inspired the prophets
• The prophets predicted Messiah's death, resurrection, and the resurrection of the dead
• Jesus came in the first century AD about the time Daniel 9 predicts for the Messiah, and due to Jesus' work, many nations turned to the Lord of Abraham and Jacob as prophesied in Tanakh and Judaism about the Messiah. And he also died through piercing as prophecied about Messiah in Tanakh.

It looks then that Jesus qualifies as Messiah, and then what is open to question for me at the moment is whether this Messianic fulfillment of prophecy next entails that all the other Messianic or Christian beliefs like virgin birth and resurrection would come to pass.

It's called "the case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is faith based on deductive reasoning

I have read much of it and find he is a skilled writer and makes good arguments, but I still see the alternative views and explanations. For example, he emphasizes the tomb being empty. However, in fact there is more than one way for a body to exit a tomb. Maybe the body was removed from the tomb Friday night and then when the soldiers were posted on Saturday the tomb was already empty. Or maybe the whole story about the soldiers was made up because it was written only in Matthew. Or maybe the soldiers were posted and then left on Sunday with no incident and then after they left a few sympathizers of Jesus took the body on Sunday night. Or the soldiers or Pilate sympathized with Christ secretly and removed the body. Or a few soldiers were overwhelmed by a much larger pack of sympathizers armed with daggers (in the gospels before Jesus' arrest he told the disciples to arm themselves with daggers). Or thieves or gnostic necromancing cultists stole the body. There are lots of possibilities.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks for a thoughtful reply, Lynne.

One of the questions would be how much belief is a "choice" or "decision"?

Strawberry and chocolate ice cream are nice, while vanilla is plain and more boring. Is chocolate or my preference for chocolate then really my "choice" or is it just a reflection of me being able to recognize reality that chocolate is a better flavor?

Further, is choosing to believe in some things like the Jewish and Christian miracle events really the same thing as picking a flavor of ice cream or even picking a "life philosophy"? Peacefulness and studying and love are quite nice philosophies and customs and behaviors for me to choose. But is recognizing some historical event or fact of nature like the world being round or Aztecs performing sacrifices or the brutal actions of the Spanish conquest of the Americas really a choice? I don't want the Aztecs to have performed sacrifices, so can I choose not to believe this bad act occurred? Same thing with the miracle events in Christianity or the phenomena of Biblical prophecy. It seems to me hard to say that I love these events, they sound very nice to me, therefore I will decide that the events are factually real.

It seems to me instead that one has to consider whether the Jewish or Christian events and phenomena like Biblical prophecy are real based on a realistic observation and reasoning, not just finding that the phenomena are appealing and then choosing to believe in them on this basis.

I like what you are saying here, Lynne:

• The Soul exists
• God exists
• God inspired the prophets
• The prophets predicted Messiah's death, resurrection, and the resurrection of the dead
• Jesus came in the first century AD about the time Daniel 9 predicts for the Messiah, and due to Jesus' work, many nations turned to the Lord of Abraham and Jacob as prophesied in Tanakh and Judaism about the Messiah. And he also died through piercing as prophecied about Messiah in Tanakh.

It looks then that Jesus qualifies as Messiah, and then what is open to question for me at the moment is whether this Messianic fulfillment of prophecy next entails that all the other Messianic or Christian beliefs like virgin birth and resurrection would come to pass.


I have read much of it and find he is a skilled writer and makes good arguments, but I still see the alternative views and explanations. For example, he emphasizes the tomb being empty. However, in fact there is more than one way for a body to exit a tomb. Maybe the body was removed from the tomb Friday night and then when the soldiers were posted on Saturday the tomb was already empty. Or maybe the whole story about the soldiers was made up because it was written only in Matthew. Or maybe the soldiers were posted and then left on Sunday with no incident and then after they left a few sympathizers of Jesus took the body on Sunday night. Or the soldiers or Pilate sympathized with Christ secretly and removed the body. Or a few soldiers were overwhelmed by a much larger pack of sympathizers armed with daggers (in the gospels before Jesus' arrest he told the disciples to arm themselves with daggers). Or thieves or gnostic necromancing cultists stole the body. There are lots of possibilities.

I can sum it up in a few words. For some no proof is necessary and for others no proof is enough. I will pray God shows you what you need to believe. Sorry my friend nobody but God has the answers to what you seek